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    Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

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    darkfire1

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  darkfire1 on Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:51 pm

    Safety Issue: Has anyone noticed how low the safety berms are on the lower pistol bays? I believe the sign says Bay 1? From this bay, you can see people in Bay 2 above and they can see you! (even at the top of the hill bays 6-10)… THIS CANNOT BE SAFE!! I know Kettlefoot is focused on providing a safe facility for all its members and I strongly believe this needs to be addressed ASAP…. !!! I encourage all K-foot shooters to voice your opinion on this matter!!!! This could save your life!!!!

    Wayne

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2009-02-18

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  Wayne on Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:27 am

    I was not aware of a safety isuue on the IDPA Range. We will have some heavy equipment at the club this week making improvements to the rifle range and I will have someone check about this issue.
    Remember, Just because you can see someone does not necessarily make for an un safe situation. For example; When we shoot on any range at Kettlefoot (except the IDPA area) we can look to our left and right and see all the other shooters on the range. Basic safty states never to go forward of the firing line unless an all clear is stated.
    This rule can also be used in the IDPA area if needed.
    Thanks for your input, I am contacting Mark and others about this issue. If you feel this is unsafe, please avoid using this bay as there are 10 others available.
    Wayne
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    MarkEagle

    Posts : 64
    Join date : 2009-02-12
    Age : 62

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  MarkEagle on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:47 am

    Darkfire,
    The lower bay is very safe when used as directed. The picnic table generally sits outside the shooting area of the bay, so if you were shooting from the picnic table you were not actually in the bay. If you shoot from the non-approved areas on any of the ranges you can easily see other folks. If you are actually in the bay as opposed to the common area, then that bay is fine. If someone is too far out of the bay shooting, I recommend you asking them to actually move into the various bays to keep shooting
    So yes, if you stop and park right at the road, and sit at the picnic bench (which generally is not in the shooting portion of the bay) you can see folks in the upper bay. But you are not supposed to sit on the table where it sits, if you wish to sit and shoot, move the picnic table further into the bay.
    Safety is everybodys responsibility, so be sure to move into the bays before shooting.
    Thanks
    Mark

    surestrike1

    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  surestrike1 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:32 am

    Darkfire,
    This has been brought up several times by multiple shooters including guest shooters at the Va. State match. Seems to be a quantity over quality issue. I practice daily and will not use any of the lower bays. Try using the 2nd or 3rd bay at the top shooting ranges.
    Safety has to be priority one, period. I will not risk getting shot, if those two bays are in use I leave.
    I don't think the forum is frequented by a lot of shooters so I don't now how many responses you will get, but this has been a issue since day one.
    Safety is everyone's responsibility but unfortunately everyone's not responsible or safe. Good luck with the post.
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    MarkEagle

    Posts : 64
    Join date : 2009-02-12
    Age : 62

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  MarkEagle on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:53 am

    Jamie is right, and if everyone follows the safety rules, then all will be fine

    1. No shooting from common areas
    2. Move into bays to shoot.
    3. Shoot towards back of bays.
    4. Always use safe shooting actions.

    The problem is with stupid shooters and those who do not follow good and safe shooting habits, and personally I would ban stupid shooters. I am trying to figure out a test for that, but cannot work one out that seems fair.
    It is not really the experienced shooters I worry about, but even then they can become complacent and have a negligent discharge, but rather the new shooters that point their weapons in all different areas.

    So, stay with the safety rules above, and if someone is acting unsafe, bring it to their attention, or at least get a car model and license plate number and tell the new range safety officers what is going on. We cannot have fun at KRGC unless we are safe first. And yes, we do have official safety officers who roam the club and check membership and safe shooting practices.

    Safety is everyone's concern and responsibility

    Mark

    Wayne

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2009-02-18

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  Wayne on Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:36 pm

    I am concerned that this has been an issue from the start and today is the first time I have been made aware of the problem. I have already stated that the heavy equipment will be working at the club for the next few days and I will work with the IDPA staff to insure safty. We may need to look at combining bays and raising the berms, but again I say safety is the inividuals responsibility. We cannot plan for everyone who may or may not be a responsible shooter. There are more traffic laws than any of us can remember and our highways are marked and regulated everywhere, Every driver is supposedly liscensed and tested to be competent. We still have multiple accidents every day. 50,000 highway deaths a year are the testament for all these precautions. We will evaluate the area and see what can be done.
    Having said all this I will say that you are probably safer shooting at Kettlefoot than driving your car to get there.
    Wayne



    surestrike1

    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  surestrike1 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:02 pm

    The problem is on occasion some don't follow rule 1..
    Few follow rules 2,3, even during matches.
    And even less ( from my observations ) follow 4, excluding matches due to safety officers being present.
    While shooting it is short of impossible to monitor others safety practices, that's what berms are for....well....
    Sorry to hear Wayne that this is the first you have heard about this.

    Wayne

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2009-02-18

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  Wayne on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:12 pm

    Jamie,
    If you remember I had both you and Mark advising me when construction began. I was never told there was any problem. Now I am having to backtrack. I will be at the range this evening and I will take time to look at the area in Question. I would like for you and Mark to be there and tell me what you need. I am of the mindset that we must dig a big hole and place the shooter in it and then only low-flying aircraft will be in any danger. LOL. Seriously try to give me some input. I am not an authority on IDPA ranges. The equipment will be there Wed. thru Fri.
    Wayne
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    MarkEagle

    Posts : 64
    Join date : 2009-02-12
    Age : 62

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  MarkEagle on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:35 pm

    I am afraid that combining bays would produce less safe areas as the angles just do not work. You would have to make the berms so tall that you would not have any room left in the bay. If can raise the tops of the berms a few feet then super, higher is better, but there is a law of diminishing returns.
    Perhaps the best option would be to actually get a surveyor who can measure the angles and distances to review the ranges, but that would be pretty expensive. But it might be a good investment long term.

    Maybe we should go to airsoft pistols? <g>

    Mark

    surestrike1

    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  surestrike1 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:03 pm

    Even air soft is dangerous if you get shot in the eye. This is not rocket sience just good old common since. Turn 5 bays into 3 then you have plenty of room to raise the berms. Im sorry but I can't come out tonight I will be working late most of the week.
    All kidding aside this is a simple fix.

    Wayne

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2009-02-18

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  Wayne on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:29 pm

    Mark,
    I am thinking of perhaps taking out 1 berm and placing the dirt on the adjacent berms. Another thought is simply digging them deeper. We would have to buy more gravel and redo the road etc. All this and still someone will find a problem.
    My biggest complaint against this forum is the anonimity of its posters. Everyone knows who Mark Eagle is and I think everyone knows who Wayne is. Some folks want to make statements and give advice but they don't publish their name so I can solicit help from them.
    A new rule that I think would help is everyone's user name be their real name. At the very least I would know who I am working with.
    Some of the posters are not members and may live in Alaska for all I Know.
    Oh Well! I have ranted on long enough. I think I'll go out and run the league tonight.
    By the way..I thought we had a great IDPA meeting the other night. We discussed many issues and ways to improve the range and the IDPA Program including the State shoot. The meeting was well publicized but no-one came out and said anything about the berms or safety concerns.
    All of a sudden it's a fix it now urgent issue. Where were these folks Monday before last?
    I am not being a smart___, and we will address this issue in some form or fashion that will hopefully make a better and safer range,but I would rather this issue have been discussed and resolved through the proper channels and not by soliciting everyone's opinion.
    I have never been unavailable for honest discussion and help in regards to Kettlefoot,but I get an attitude when the first words out of someone's mouthy is.... Wayne...what youuu need to do is.......
    Now I know I have went on long enough. Mark...Thanks for all you do...I have always appreciated your efforts with IDPA. You Walt and the others always do a Great job. I have watched your actions at the shoots and have always been impressed with the professionalism of your staff.
    Wayne Wills,
    Club President

    surestrike1

    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  surestrike1 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:13 pm

    Glad the meeting went well, I would have come but didn't now about it. This issue had been brought up several times to the proper channel and nothing has been done. The ones of us that have talked about it did so not to air it over a forum but face to face. I feel as you do that safety is always an urgent matter.I simply answered the guys email..
    Mark does do a great job with idpa and you as president, but this is not about any of that it is simply a safety issue not a personal attack by whomever he is.
    Jamie

    darkfire1

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  darkfire1 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:05 pm

    Gentlemen,

    Again, this post was to simply address a safety issue on the berms of the lower bays. I appreciate the hard work of all volunteers at Kettlefoot ! We have all come to the conclusion that this post has merit and has now achieved what it was designed to accomplish…PUTTING YOU FINE GENTLEMEN in contact with the decision makers to remedy this problem. I believe this forum has been an excellent addition to Kettlefoot and has been a sufficient channel to express concerns. Thanks again for all your hard work and a quick response.


    Sincerely,

    Silence Dogood
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    ontrack

    Posts : 41
    Join date : 2009-02-21
    Age : 56
    Location : Bristol, Virginia

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  ontrack on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:19 pm

    Actually, bay 1 is my favorite because it's wide enough where I can find my brass without it going in the grass on the berms. The last time I was there, (2 weeks ago) bay 1 was occupied so my wife and I started shooting in bay 3 or 4, can't remember which. I noticed the guy in bay 1 backing up and shooting the from edge of the road behind bay 1, well outside of the berm. Since these were the only 2 bays being used, we just moved up a couple of bays to be away from him in a safer spot. I have never noticed the heights of the berms as being an issue, though I have rarely shot in the new bays when someone was in the bay beside me. I did shoot the first 2 or 3 IDPA matches after the new bays were opened, but have been unable to shoot in a match since then, so my opinion may not be worth much...

    Steve Proffitt
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    55Kingpin

    Posts : 13
    Join date : 2009-03-01

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  55Kingpin on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:28 pm

    surestrike1 wrote:Darkfire,
    This has been brought up several times by multiple shooters including guest shooters at the Va. State match. Seems to be a quantity over quality issue. I practice daily and will not use any of the lower bays. Try using the 2nd or 3rd bay at the top shooting ranges.
    Safety has to be priority one, period. I will not risk getting shot, if those two bays are in use I leave.
    I don't think the forum is frequented by a lot of shooters so I don't now how many responses you will get, but this has been a issue since day one.
    Safety is everyone's responsibility but unfortunately everyone's not responsible or safe. Good luck with the post.

    The 4 Rules:

    1. Treat every gun as if it were loaded.
    2. Never point a gun at anything you do not intend to destroy.
    3. Keep the safety engaged and your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
    4. Always be aware of your target's foreground and background.

    I agree, safety is priority one. I only use bays 2 or 3 (at the top of the hill) when other people are out there. In my humble opinion they are the safest bays we have in regards to the safety of the person IN the bay shooting/practicing. The problem is we don't always know what others' intentions are or their skill level.

    For example, I was muzzle swept or "flagged" (refer to the 4 rules) while I was shooting in bay 1 by a shooter in bay 6 (the first bay at the top of the hill). I would love to be able to go up there and say something to the other shooter, but taking my own personal safety into account I don't think it's the best idea to approach someone I don't know from Adam and start lecturing them on safety, especially knowing that they have a loaded gun and they are NOT muzzle conscience! It's much safer for me to learn my lesson (Don't shoot in bay 1 when other people are out there) and pack up and go home. No amount of practice is worth risking my life to a bullet in the back.

    I personally have been vocal on this issue, and I'm glad to see that a resolution is in process. I regret I missed the last IDPA meeting that Wayne referred to, I was unaware of it's existence and in the future I will try to stay involved and attend such meetings. I love being able to shoot at Kettlefoot and I look forward to spending all of my free time out there (in fact, I will be setting up stages for this Saturday's IDPA match). But as was said before, safety is numero uno. I do believe that there is a viable solution that will keep all shooters in all bays safe and sound. To me, the very definition of a bay should include the following words...the shooter in the bay will be completely safe from any other shooting activity going on in another bay.

    Respectfully,

    Chase A. King

    ETA: In my opinion, the simplest solution is to take out the berm between bays 2 and 3 (at the bottom of the hill) and add that berm to the right side berm of bay 1. Done.

    kf88

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2010-09-21

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  kf88 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:45 am

    Admin why was my post pulled from yesterday? All I said was take the two berms out of the two bad bays and put the dirt on the other berms and we will have bigger better bays any way. The bays pretty much stink now and quit whining and just fix em. Admin please explain!

    Wayne

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2009-02-18

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  Wayne on Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:58 am

    To all concerned,
    This issue came to my attention yesterday. Last night I announced I would be at the range last night to see what could be done. I am immediately closing bay 1. My propsal (approved already) by Kettlefoot Rec. is to remove the berm between 2 and 3 and lengthen and raise the berms on either side. This will create a wider deeper bay 2, but we will lose #3. This should take care of the lower range , but we still have the problem with the upper and lower ranges being alongside and at different levels.
    Upper level changes will be a berm high enough to completely protect shooters at lower level from shooters at the upper level including the waiting areas and visa-versa. This may entail partially or completely blocking vehicle access between the ranges.
    Bay 7 may be lengthened and deepened to provide dirt for the berm.
    The angle and depth of bay 10 will be altered to provide more security between bays 9 and 10.
    Old Bay 11 now Bay 10 will be improved and a new bay 11 created at 3:00 o'clock from the upper shelter to provide more dirt for the berms.
    Mark is now looking at what I have proposed and I believe we will be in agreement on the needed improvements.
    I hope to have this completed next week. Everyone's co-operation will be desired as we may have a few days disruption in normal activities. I will try to have as little disruption to the monthly shoot as possible.
    Please bear with me and I hope to have this issue resolved by next week this time.
    Thanks for the nice comments, I really do try to do a good job of running the club.

    Wayne

    surestrike1

    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  surestrike1 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:29 am

    Bravo Wayne, you really do a good job at running the club. The improvements since you have been in (for all disaplins) have been incredible. Thanks Kfoot rec. for the approval. I feel as any disruptions due to safety concerns is a non issue. We have to be safe in the game we play. Thanks again Wayne and silence dogood (thats funny!!!).It is a shame it took this kind of post to get this resolved.
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    55Kingpin

    Posts : 13
    Join date : 2009-03-01

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  55Kingpin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:56 am

    Wayne,

    Thank you sir! Your proposed improvements sound just like what we need. When it comes to shooting bays there are certain truths that will always hold...there's no such thing as a berm too high, or a bay too deep or wide. I anxiously await seeing our new and improved bays!

    I appreciate all that you and Mark do at the club, and I sincerely hope that the lines of communication between the members of the club and management will always stay clear and open. When it comes down to it, I feel like the majority of us just love shooting and it's nice to have a place to get together and enjoy it, albeit in a safe manner of course.

    Respectfully,

    Chase A. King (golf clap)

    kf88

    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2010-09-21

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  kf88 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:01 am

    Ditto boys! what chase and jamie said
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    ontrack

    Posts : 41
    Join date : 2009-02-21
    Age : 56
    Location : Bristol, Virginia

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  ontrack on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:13 pm

    It's hard to complain about improvements! A big thanks to Wayne, Mark, and all involved.

    Steve Proffitt

    TNWES84

    Posts : 1
    Join date : 2010-09-22

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  TNWES84 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:53 pm

    Wayne,

    This has been a topic of conversation for quite sometime! I would like to say thank you for your hard work and ensuring safety at the range. I look forward to these improvements and feel as though everyone will benfit greatly from this new design.

    Thanks,

    Wes

    Admin
    Admin

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    Join date : 2009-02-12

    To kf88

    Post  Admin on Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:16 pm

    kf88,

    I have not removed any posts in at least 6-months. I am not sure what happened to it. There may be a server problem or something. Sorry.

    Admin (Robert Macfarlane)

    surestrike1

    Posts : 15
    Join date : 2010-09-20

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  surestrike1 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:13 am

    Admin are there any moderators that can edit post ???
    Jamie

    Wayne

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2009-02-18

    Re: Unsafe shooting bay on the lower level …

    Post  Wayne on Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:56 am

    kf88 and all concerned
    Your post came through fine on my computer. Rob does a good job maintaining the forum. He is just another fine person trying to do a work for kettlefoot with no pay and very little thanks. Rob, I really appreciate your efforts. I wish I had a bunch more like you. It would make my job easier.
    I hope to have the new work on the IDPA range completed by Friday late. Clean-up and reseeding next week.
    Mark may be asking for volunteers to help Tom in replacing crossties and general clean-up. A workday may be needed.
    I hope all the participants will bear with us this weekend. I know this will effect the monthly shoot, but I had the heavy equipment already scheduled for the centerfire range and had no other choice.
    For those who are not aware, the centerfire range was never completed. This has been a thorn in my side. I can't stand a job partially done. When completed the rifle range will have the lead containment berm at the 100 yd. backers, concrete walkway to the 200 yd. line and new walkway to the improved 300 yd. line.
    Larry Bennett is working on (I hope) warning lights for the range to indicate someone is downrange.
    I wish to apologize for not being aware of the issue at the IDPA area. I rarely shoot my handguns, so I just plead ignorance of the fact.
    In the future please feel free to contact me, by preferably email or by phone. All my contact info is posted on the website.
    Five years ago last June 1st I took the job of Treasurer at Kettlefoot. At that time I promised to give the Club 5 yrs. The reason I am still here is that I see what our potential is and if I leave, I will dissappoint the many fine friends I have made over the years. They rely on me and I simply cannot let them down.
    Our two governing bodies...Kettlefoot Inc. and Kettlefoot Recreation have never worked together better to insure that we will always have the finest and safest place to enjoy our sports.
    With this having been said, Please be aware that we are getting older and we are searching for our own replacements. Any one willing to give a hand or assume a management position? No pay, long hours, very little thanks, lots of issues (some large..some small) to deal with, but a great sense of accomplishment and some really fine people to work with. Please apply.
    Wayne

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